In business they say that cash is king. Forget profit, if you don’t keep an eye on the cash flow, you could be out of business in very quick order. Well, as it turns out, it’s not a lot different in our personal finances. Way too many let their hard earned cash just slip through their fingers.

Hi, I’m Berni Dymet and welcome again to A Different Perspective. As we’re joined again by Alex Cook, a man with a passion to help you manage your money effectively. Alex, great to have you on the program again this week.

 

Alex: Thanks for having me back, Berni.

 

Berni: Hey, you run an organisation called ‘Wealth with Purpose’ which is about what?

 

Alex: Well, it’s about helping people manage their money wisely. And in particular, manage their money according to biblical principles. Because what we know is that the biblical principles – when we adopt them into our day-to-day finances – help you, if you like, live a very financially free life.

 

Berni: Yeah, that’s … it’s easy to say, right.

 

Alex: It is!

 

Berni: But many of us feel like we have holes in our pockets. What are some of the things that we need to take back in control to manage to flow of cash through our personal finances?

 

Alex: Yeah, well I’ll start by giving a scripture actually, because this probably will really set the scene …

 

Berni: You Christians are always … quote the Bible.

 

Alex: I don’t know, fair dinkum. Well this one’s a great one from Luke Chapter 14 it says this, it says:

Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 

Now that’s very, very sensible advice. And really what it’s saying is, you need to know how much things cost and how much your life actually costs to run. So what I always encourage people to do firstly is to do a budget. And a budget is simply just a tool and what it does is it shows you how much money is coming in to your house. So your wages and so forth. Versus how much money is going out. And hopefully that’s a surplus.

 

Berni: Yeah

 

Alex: Because if you’re in deficit then clearly, you know, you’re starting to rack up debt and so forth and getting yourselves into financial difficulty. So the first thing is having that budget and learning and becoming aware of where your money is, where you’re spending it, what you’re spending it on, whether you’re spending too much in some areas, too little in other areas. And really just thinking it through and making a plan. So that’s the first thing.

 

Berni: It’s quite a … It’s interesting I was sitting with someone recently and we were doing a bit of a budget for them and we just looked at how much money they spent on coffee and lunches, right. Just coffee and lunches, and when we added it up for the week they were appalled with how much money was just running through their fingers.

 

Alex: It’s amazing. I’ve done it for myself and I was absolutely staggered. We’re talking you know a four figure sum over the course of a year. It was just staggering how much money goes in those sort of things. And that’s one of the things that budgeting helps you do because it brings to light …

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: Things and you think, “Oh, really, surely there’s a better way of doing that?”

 

Berni: And that’s not how I want to spend my money.

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: If you don’t know, well you’re just going to keep doing it.

 

Alex: Yeah, and of course it’s eating into your future when you’re spending money on things you shouldn’t.

 

Berni: So first thing is to do a budget. What comes next?

 

Alex: Secondly, I say to people, is to try and automate your finances, OK. And by that I really mean saying, “Well, we know how much money is coming in each month and we want to then direct it according to a specific purpose.” So as Christians we say we want to live generously with the money, OK. So the money, we acknowledge it’s not ours, we’re called to be stewards. So how do we live generously with it? So I say to people, with your budget, try and allocate the first 10% to God as a way of honouring God and giving glory to Him. Now, that is not the limit, it’s just, you know, a recommended starting point. I don’t believe in having a legalistic rule around these sort of things.

 

Berni: Good on you.

 

Alex: The second …

 

Berni: Otherwise I’d beat you out of the chair. Hey, listen. James L Kraft, the guy that started the Kraft food empire once said this, he said, “I don’t believe in tithing but I guess it’s not a bad place to start.”

 

Alex: When you reflect on Jesus’ teaching, I think Jesus throughout the New Testament is really calling us to a higher standard in everything. In marriage, you know in the Old Testament you could send your wife away with a certificate of divorce but in the New Testament it’s a very different picture. It’s, you know, the only reason grounds for divorce is marital unfaithfulness.

And so I think it’s the same principle for our money. Jesus is actually calling us to a higher standard. And so I don’t think that standard is capped at 10%.

 

Berni: No, we’re not just tipping God. Mind you in the US you’ve got to tip 15 to 20% now, right. It’s not just tipping God, right?

 

Alex: Well, funnily enough when you talk about tithing in the Old Testament people think it was only 10%, a lot of people today. It was actually 23% because there were three tithes that we know about. Some scholars I’ve heard argue think there were even more than that. But we know there were three totalling over 23%. And I don’t think there’s too many Christians today giving 10% let alone 23%.

 

Berni: Sorry, I interrupted you.

 

Alex: Yeah, so as I said automating your finances I think is the thing. So we want to send the money off in different directions according to a set purpose. So first there’s giving to God.

The second thing is you need to save for the future, OK. Now that could be for your kids’ expenses, for their schooling, it could be saving for the say when you cease work. And that day comes to all of us be it, you know, ill health or redundancy and so forth.

And then you leave the remaining portion for your everyday expenses. Now as you get pay increases and your circumstances change then you may want to give more, you may want to save more, and ideally your living expenses on a day-to-day basis actually reduce as a percentage of your spending.

 

Berni: What about physically managing accounts? Should a couple have separate accounts, same accounts, how many bank accounts should we have, what do you advise people?

 

Alex: Yeah, well that’s a great question. To deal with the couple issue first and foremost. I believe couples should have joint accounts in most circumstances, not all but in most. Simply because it’s transparency and it’s sort of acknowledging that the money is not either his or hers but it’s ours for stewarding for God. So having joint accounts I think is very important.

There are some exceptions: if someone’s come from, say it’s a second marriage and the first marriage broke down due to distrust and unfaithfulness and all those sort of things. Some people can be, you know, very affected by those sort of things. And therefore you need to rebuild the trust before you do that. So I think there are circumstances where you need to be, you know, about reasonable about it.

The other thing, though, is how many accounts should you have? I believe in what I call the ‘kiss’ theory: keep it simple silly. OK and by keeping it …

 

Berni: In the army we used to call it keep it simple stupid.

 

Alex: So keep it simple, so I would suggest that you have no more than two to three accounts. One account should be your emergency fund, where you put money aside and I say to people they should try and put six months’ worth of living expenses.

 

Berni: Ah.

 

Alex: Now for a lot of people, that sounds like a lot.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: But the stats show that in many countries most people are broke within four to six weeks of losing their job because they don’t have money saved. And that puts enormous pressure on people and on relationships. So six months’ worth of living expenses in a bank account. That’s your first account.

The second one, your everyday account, OK. So your everyday account is for, you know, your rent, your mortgage and day-to-day spending.

And then the last account can be your combination of your giving to God account or your long term planning account. So long term saving for the future, for as I say your kids’ education and so forth. So that’s a simple way to do it. But no more than really two to three. But this is not about complicating it and for some people depending on how well they manage it, they may only need one account. For others, where they’re not so good at it, they need to put it out of sight out of mind and have it separate and isolated if you like so they don’t spend it.

 

Berni: I reckon it depends on how well you manage it. I reckon a lot of people just simply don’t manage it.

 

Alex: I would say probably, yes. In my experience probably 80%, 90% of people struggle.

 

Berni: So there’s a very clear message that I’m getting from what you’ve been saying is that we need to get on the front foot, we need to get proactive about … If we’re serious, if I say I believe in Jesus. If I say that Jesus Christ is my Lord, that God comes first, then one of the things we need to get serious about is the purpose of our wealth. To get serious about that we really need to know what’s happening with the money.

 

Alex: Exactly right. I mean there’s no way you can have an eternal perspective of your money if you don’t know where your money’s going.

 

Berni: No.

 

Alex: It’s just impossible. So you know budget a very simple tool to actually make you aware and to then help you to ask honest questions. Am I honouring God with my money?

 

Berni: Yeah, that’s a tough question, hey?

 

Alex: It is, but it’s important.

 

Berni: Well let me ask you. You’re listening to this money expert here talk away, Alex Cook. Are you honouring God with your money? Now there’s something to think about and there’s something to pray about, hey?

 

Alex: Absolutely.

 

So, the God and money thing. Hasn’t that little combination caused a lot of confusion over the years? And a lot of people struggle to understand where does savings, where does the idea of investment fit into God’s plan? Or should we just give it all away? See, that’s where the confusion comes in.

Hi, I’m Berni Dymet and welcome to the program today as I’m joined by money man Alex Cook to help us understand investment from a different perspective. Alex, great to have you on the program today.

 

Alex: Great to be back Berni.

 

Berni: Hey mate, is there a difference between investing from a secular perspective and a biblical perspective?

 

Alex: Absolutely. Look, I think there are just two key differences here. One is the purpose behind it and the second is the principles by which you invest.

So what I really mean by that … well with purpose … you and I both have a common friend who’s a wealthy individual who’s used his money to fund a film studio. And that film studio is designed to be used to promote Christian media around the world and to train people up and create the next generation of Christians in the media.

But he’s also done another thing, he’s bought a coffee shop where he’s used that coffee shop to bring women out of the sex trade and get them out of prostitution into a normal job and a normal lifestyle.

So the important thing I’m trying to draw out of that is his wealth has a purpose. Now that’s at the extreme end because that’s someone who, you know, has a lot of money. But I met an amazing pastor, probably three years ago, and she had given away four cars. She was not affluent in any way. Probably lived mostly I suspect month to month but she had given away four cars to help people in her church, single mothers in many cases.

So wealth in the Christian world is not a bad thing. We often have painted wealth as a bad thing, a bit dirty, a bit negative. But wealth when it’s channelled to the right purpose can be really powerful. It can be … you know, it can really change other people’s lives. Lift people out of poverty, advance the gospel, there are so many things you can do with wealth.

 

Berni: Other than hoarding it.

 

Alex: So yeah, that’s a very good point. Because there’s a distinction between saving and hoarding. Saving is just setting money aside for a future goal and a future purpose.

Hoarding usually means there’s no specific purpose for it. It’s money that just accumulates over time for no good reason. And usually it’s a sign of a problem, like, as I say it could be a problem like, you know, fear that you’re going to run out of money one day.

So hoarding and saving are actually quite different. Saving is a biblical principle.

 

Berni: OK.

 

Alex: In fact, if when we … if you read Proverbs 6 it talks about the example of the ant. How the ant saves and stores away for the future. And we as Christians should do the same thing. We need to store. I mean, the Bible talks about storing up treasure in heaven but we’re also to set money aside for the future to allow for the fact that circumstances change.

 

Berni: OK, so the first thing was the difference between secular and biblical investing was having a purpose. What’s the second thing?

 

Alex: The second thing is the principles and the principles by which you invest. So the way the secular world tends to … it’s all about kind of getting rich as quick as possible. Whereas the Bible uses things like patience. We need to be patient and invest for the longer term.

We also need to do thorough research. We’re living in a society now where people don’t want to take responsibility any more for their actions. So often when … they’ll buy an investment either through an adviser or just through a product provider. They’ll then blame someone when that investment goes bad. On one hand you can sort of partly understand why.

But the thing from a biblical perspective … if we need to actually do our due diligence we need to … you know the Bible talks about things like being diligent. I mean there’s many passages that speak to this. But we also need to plan things, we need to research things to make sure that what we’re putting God’s money into is likely to be a viable investment and it’s actually likely to achieve the goal for which it set out.

 

Berni: Now I know there’s someone listening right now who’s a Christian who says, ‘Hang on a minute, what’s this guy talking about? The Bible doesn’t talk about accumulating wealth. That’s wrong, you should actually … to be a good Christian you should be poor.’

 

Alex: It’s a …

 

Berni: If you want to be poor go into ministry. But OK, go on.

 

Alex: Look I think that’s really a false teaching that’s being going around for a very long, long time. And it’s almost a counter response to the other teaching that goes around which is that God wants you to be rich. And the kind of health and wealth gospel.

And so my view sits square in the middle of that and that’s what I call, you know, the concept of stewardship. And we go … if we look at the parable of the talents in Matthew 25 it speaks to the fact that the workers were all given different amounts of resources and they had to get a return on it.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: In fact, depending on which version of the Bible you read, in one it’s called the parable of the gold bags and the one I actually like, it’s called the parable of the loaned money.

And the reason why I like that is it’s a really good way of thinking about it. The money that we have is on loan from God. And we have to get a return on that money. Now that return is not necessarily a percentage return, it’s an eternal return. So whatever money you’ve got, you’ve got to use that money to get an eternal return on investment if you like. Now that could be helping the poor, it could be advancing the gospel, it could be all sorts of different things to different people.

And God, I think, puts things on your heart that you feel particularly passionate about using the money for. But either way it has to have a purpose and then we need of course to invest according to the biblical principles.

 

Berni: OK, investing out there though can be a dirty business. I mean, there are organisations … I mean you go and buy shares or you buy products in a fund and there are a whole bunch of ethical issues about what they invest in and … How do you deal with that?

 

Alex: Look, I think it’s tough and this is why the research side of things is so important. And as I say, this is where Christians have to take responsibility. They actually have to do something. In fact, there’s a passage in Proverbs 18 which talks about due diligence. It says:

One who is slack in his work is brother to one who destroys.

So we need to actually … we can’t be slackers. We actually have to do thorough research and be diligent. To make sure that what we’re investing in is something that doesn’t harm people, it doesn’t harm animals, it doesn’t harm the environment, and all those sorts of things.

Now some things are very black and white. So some things are really easy, you know. Christians shouldn’t be buying cigarette companies or casinos. Those sorts of things are very simple. But some things are a bit greyer. So if you took, like, an alcohol company. Now most Christians drink. Jesus turned water into wine. So most people actually think, you know, a liquor company, maybe it’s a bit grey because we know also liquor can lead to alcoholism and all sorts of other things.

So these things are grey and I think you really need to seek God and say, ‘God, is this an investment that I can comfortably own?’ You also have to look at it more deeply than that. So it could be things like; What are the practices of the company? Do they treat their staff properly? Do they pay their staff properly? There are many things that you need to research to make sure that that investment lines up with biblical values.

 

Berni: When it comes to investing, where do you start? Someone’s visiting and they go, “OK, I do want to invest, I’ve got some money. I have a purpose for the future. I want to invest. How do I start?”

 

Alex: Yeap! Well the first thing you need to do is save. OK?

 

Berni: Oh damn! Really?

 

Alex: Because if you don’t save … then

 

Berni: Oh dear.

 

Alex: Then clearly you’re not going to have anything to invest. That’s the first thing. So you need to save. Second thing is start on the research process to actually work out what are the sorts of investments that you might be considering. And part of that is understanding risk. All investments have some level of risk attached to them. OK.

So I call it the sleep at night test. How will you sleep at night knowing how that money’s invested? And one of the ways to deal with risk, and this is actually something that modern day financial advisers talk about. But it’s actually straight out of the Bible, in fact it’s out of Ecclesiastes. It says this, it says:

Invest in seven ventures, yes in eight; you do not know what disaster may come upon the land.

That’s Ecclesiastes.

 

Berni: Wow, spreading risk.

 

Alex: Yeah, diversification. So that’s what financial planners will tell you today but it’s actually straight out of the Bible. We need to diversify. And when we look at the world today that’s, you know, increasingly uncertain. I don’t like using that expression because I think things are always uncertain in one sense because you … no one knows the future.

But when we look at the things going on around the world today you do need to diversify. There is risk in many nations and so that biblical principle of spreading your money, not having all your eggs in one basket, makes very good sense.

 

Berni: Alex, thanks for that. Some stuff there to think about. wealthwithpurpose.com is your website?

 

Alex: That’s right.

 

Berni: I really encourage you to go and have a look at it. It’s … Alex is in the business of helping people to deal with their finances in a biblical way. So I really appreciate some of the wisdom you’ve shared with us today.

 

Alex: Thanks Berni, my pleasure.

 

Berni: Again some amazing insights from Alex, thanks for that.

 

Retirement, now there’s an interesting subject. It’s not a concept you find anywhere in the Bible, so should we be saving for our retirements or does God call us to do something quite different with our money? It’s not an easy one, is it?

Hi, I’m Berni Dymet and great to be back with you again as I’m joined by Alex Cook, our money man. To take a look at this whole question of retirement from a different perspective. Alex, welcome.

 

Alex: Hi Berni, great to be with you.

 

Berni: Hey mate, I said before money’s not in the Bible. I often joke with people who are at retirement age and say, “Well if it’s not in the Bible it must be a sin!” Well what’s your take on retirement?

 

Alex: Look, there’s nothing necessarily wrong with retirement in the sense of stopping paid work. However, the Bible is silent on the topic. There’s one obscure reference in Numbers where God is giving instructions to Moses to tell the Levis to stop working at aged 50. That’s the only reference you’ll find. Apart from that …

 

Berni: Mind you, Moses starts his ministry at age 80.

 

Alex: Exactly.

 

Berni: Right?

 

Alex: Well my view is very simple. Each of us has a calling; we have an assignment that God wants us to do. And that calling does not stop the moment you reach, say, the magical age of 65 or whatever the retirement age is in your country. To me retirement really it’s not a biblical concept and the problem is most modern culture pushes this idea that you enter this period of leisure.

 

Berni: Yes.

 

Alex: Whereas I think in what I’ve seen, both as a financial planner and also from a Christian perspective, is firstly the longer you work the longer you’ll live. It’s actually much healthier to work.

 

Berni: You’re just obsessed around that, right?

 

Alex: Absolutely. And in fact the scary stat is that most men die within five years of retirement. So retire later and you’ll live longer basically. But it’s a statistical fact and I think the reason why is you’re kind of telling your body that you’re shutting down.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: That’s it. But that shouldn’t happen at all. As I say as a Christian you’ve got a calling, you’ve got an assignment that doesn’t end at an age. Now that doesn’t mean you have to do paid work till the day you drop.

 

Berni: Right.

 

Alex: And it may well be that we all have different circumstances. So we don’t need to necessarily work. But it’s about using the second half of your life and fulfilling the purposes for which God has called you.

 

Berni: So, should Christians retire is somewhat of a moot question as far as you’re concerned?

 

Alex: Exactly right, yeah.

 

Berni: OK, we’ve got an aging population. What are some of the challenges that we’re going to face as a society with more people getting older?

 

Alex: It’s putting enormous pressure on governments around the world and on their budgets, if you like.

Particularly, most countries unfortunately over the last 50 years have racked up enormous debts so now they’ve got a massive headwind. The headwind is that people are getting older, so there’s less tax payers because they’re no longer in the workforce. So the government’s got to fund it. And of course they’ve got to pay back the debts that they’ve already accumulated. So there’s enormous pressure.

The other thing is we’re all living longer. We now live 26 years longer than what we did 100 years ago. So if you think about it: retirement’s really sort of a fairly modern day concept. 100 years ago most people would have worked till they dropped.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: But now, you know, it’s now seen as this divine right. That you have this period of leisure. And I always take the view you should be enjoying life as you go along not just from 65 onwards. But not only that, of course we’re meant to be using our life to fulfil our calling, whatever that is right to the very end.

 

Berni: One of the things I’ve noticed, and please I don’t want any retiree to take offence here. But one of the things I’ve noticed sometimes, particularly among some men, is that when they retire their view and their outlook become a lot narrower that it was when they were working. Am I missing the point here, or …?

 

Alex: No, you’re very accurate. Not only that, I’ve found it does all sorts of terrible things. Firstly, many people are lonely, OK. They say 80% of a man’s social life is through work. And so when you retire, essentially your social life drops by 80%.

The second thing is I find people worry about money. Previously you had a job, you had income coming in. The moment you cease work you’ve then got to fund yourself in some way. And so people start worrying about money.

And they can become very inward. When people are in the workforce they tend to be more engaged, more interesting, lots of things going on. And busy. And I think that’s the way we’re meant to be: not too busy, but you know we’re meant to be doing things.

 

Berni: Active.

 

Alex: Active, yeah.

 

Berni: Engaged.

 

Alex: And that doesn’t happen when you retire. And many people, as I say, they become lonely and what I’ve witnessed: I’ve had many clients who had plenty of money and could retire but they actually … six months later they were back in the workforce.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: Bored out of their brain. So I think it comes back to the point that we have a purpose. God himself worked and He rested on the seventh day. So we’re the same. We should be working and occasionally we rest so …

 

Berni: Even, even Adam tilled the land in the garden. He wasn’t sitting on his backside having a holiday on a beach with a Pina Colada. Right? He was working too. I mean find … I love what I do. I’m 57 years young. One day I guess I won’t be doing this. One day, God will move me on, bring someone younger, whatever! But my calling is to preach the gospel, right.

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: I can’t help myself. As long as I draw breath …

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: I want to be sharing the good news of Jesus with someone. Even though it may not be …

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: In the way that I’m doing it right now.

 

Alex: Yeah, well in fact there’s a psalm that you would love. I think it’s Psalm 71 but I wouldn’t quote me on that necessarily, but … and then as it says:

Even when I’m old and grey, may I preach your word to the future generations.

That’s paraphrasing it. But essentially it’s saying, you know, no matter what age you are, keep passing the gospel on to future generations. Which is obviously something you’re passionate about.

 

Berni: Amen. OK, so how does this move, this transition from paid work to maybe non-paid work, how does that change your financial management planning?

 

Alex: Yeah, look, I think for every person this is going to be quite different. So for some people, in terms of the finances, your finances obviously potentially dictate what you’re able to do. For some people they may be able to go to unpaid work and work, you know, for the local church or some sort of ministry or so forth. For others it may well mean you change career. Nothing wrong with that. These days that’s becoming more common; you could have three or four careers in your lifetime.

 

Berni: Some of these young people have three or four careers by the time they’re 30 mate.

 

Alex: 30, yeah. I did. Also you might transition to your own business.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: Or you may transition into some sort of ministry or to part-time. Maybe you love what you do and you don’t want to cease. Why cease? But you lose a bit of energy so perhaps you just go from full-time to part-time. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong on this. But I do think it needs to be planned.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: And actually thought through carefully.

 

Berni: One of my neighbours was quite senior with an international airline and retired. It was appropriate, he was a pilot, but involved in other things, safety. He now works as a consultant to multiple airlines around the world. You know, a couple of days a week, two or three days a week he’s off to here or off to there. It seems to be a lovely way of transitioning when you’re at that age you don’t want to be working in the corporate world, you know 70 hours a week any more.

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: Yeah, totally.

 

Alex: But also you’ve still got a lot of value to add.

 

Berni: Totally.

 

Alex: Now while you’re still drawing breath you’ve got value to add to the world.

 

Berni: Particularly with your age and your experience and your knowledge.

 

Alex: Even more so.

 

Berni: More so, yeah.

 

Alex: Then you’ve got to pass that wisdom on.

 

Berni: OK so what about finances? What happens?

 

Alex: Well I believe that Christians should still aim to be what I call financially independent. Now you have to be very careful with these words because independence is one of the things that as human beings we’ve tried to fight against God if you like and be independent from God. And that’s sinful, that’s … you know that’s man …

 

Berni: Pride.

 

Alex: Pride, yeah. So that’s wrong but when I talk about the words financially independent what I … because I’m trying to throw away the word retirement and what that means to people. But I still believe you need to have sufficient finances to make sure that you’re not a burden on any future generations, on the government and so forth, as best you possibly can.

So Christians should use their money, try and build up so that perhaps you own your own home. And then you have enough money left over so that you can fund yourself. So it’s not about hoarding money away and building up vast wealth. But having just enough so that you can get yourself through without being a burden on others.

 

Berni: Of course that’s different in different cultures and different countries. In Western culture we throw old people away, right?

 

Alex: That’s terrible, terrible.

 

Berni: We ultimately stick them in nursing homes. Whereas in a lot of Asian cultures, middle eastern cultures, African cultures, old people become part of the family and they’re looked after in the family. And indeed they have a role in bringing up the children and helping boys to become men.

 

Alex: Yeah and it should be that way. I actually think that some of those cultures …

 

Berni: Get it right.

 

Alex: And they have a lot to teach us …

 

Berni: Absolutely.

 

Alex: In my experience.

 

Berni: Absolutely. Look, it’s exciting stuff. Retirement’s not an easy one for many people. What do you say to someone who’s working hard and knows they’re getting to the end of their working life and they simply don’t have the resources?

 

Alex: Well I say try and discard the word retirement from your psyche. Because it’s putting pressure on you and making you feel uncomfortable about where you’re at. So instead try and replace it with how you’re going to use the second half of your life for God and for glorifying him. And thinking, well OK, if that’s what it’s going to look like, how do I transition to that? And that may well mean if you don’t have those resources that you know, that you keep working. But in a different role.

 

Berni: And God is an amazing provider.

 

Alex: Amen.

 

Berni: Amen. Great stuff. Thanks for that Alex.

We often think of our money, our house, our car, our stuff as being ours. And yet God’s perspective is that every good gift that you and I have been given has been given to us by him. And he’s given it to us with a very specific purpose in mind.

Hi, I’m Berni Dymet and welcome again to A Different Perspective as I’m joined by Alex Cook to have a bit of a chat about your finances and today we’re going to be chatting about the rather touchy subject for some of stewardship.

 

Berni: Alex, welcome to the program.

 

Alex: Hi Berni, great to be with you.

 

Berni: Now we’ve kind of touched on this a little bit over the last week and a bit. But exactly from where you sit, what is stewardship?

 

Alex: Yeah. Stewardship in its very simple terms simply means managing something on behalf of somebody else.

 

Berni: OK.

 

Alex: So, from a Christian perspective, God has given us a few different things that we need to steward. And I call it the three ‘T’s: your time, your talent and your treasure. So when we think about those things that God has given us, with all of those things if you like, they have an element of – they’re limited in some way.

And so we need to … you know, we’ve only got so much time in our life. How are we going to use that time wisely for God?

How are we going to use our talents, so we’ve got skills that God’s given us? How are you going to honour God with those skills you’ve got?

And then of course your finances. How are you going to use the money that God’s given you to manage it on His behalf with His purposes? Because often when we think of money we often think of it as this is my money. You know, I’ve worked hard for it. And therefore that can shape our behaviour in a way that’s very, you know, selfish. Whereas actually God’s saying, ‘Well actually the money is really mine. I’ve given it to you, blessed you with it, how are you going to use it to honour me, to glorify me?

 

Berni: I always find it interesting, and I’m not being judgemental at all, but you go to church on Sunday morning and you sing these songs God you’re first, God you’re wonderful, God you’re everything else. And then the offering comes round, right. And often people think of what you put in the offering is the loose change in your wallet or your purse.

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: What have I got? Oh yeah I’ve got this much I’ll throw that in today. Or I’m going out for lunch; I’ve got to keep some back. Now people’s finances are limited and I know some people who are not very well off who give incredibly generously.

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: But there’s often this disconnect between what we say, what we profess to believe, what we sing, and what we actually do with the resources that have been given to us, hey?

 

Alex: Absolutely. And as you say, people are giving their spare change. And I think it’s because we don’t know how to manage money properly. So sometimes we might have the right intention but because we don’t know how to manage properly, God gets the spare change. You know, we may have lots of debt, we may not know where our money’s going. And so we manage it poorly. And so I think there’s lots of ways you can fix that.

 

Berni: You gave a great quote the other day on the program from Luther about conversion.

 

Alex: Yeah, so Martin Luther had this famous saying that is, ‘There are three conversions: the head, the heart and the wallet.’

 

Berni: Can I tell you the wallet was the hardest for me. Because when I became a Christian at age 36 I was an IT consultant jetting around the world. And I was earning rather a lot of money back then.

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: And when I just looked at the concept of the tithe. And I’m the same as you, I don’t believe in some legalistic, you know, give God 10%. But tithing is a good place to start. A tenth of my income was an awful lot of money.

 

Alex: Money, yeah.

 

Berni: Right, so the more you earn, you’d think the easier it would be to give generously to God. But I found it harder.

 

Alex: I think it’s right because ultimately it’s a hard issue.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: And as you say you look at it and you say, ‘Oh wow, that’s such a large amount of money. How can I give that?’ In fact, the stats show that when you look at churches’ giving, often the amount of per capita giving in a wealthy suburb versus a poor suburb is exactly the same. Despite the fact that, in that suburb, the income has much, much higher levels. And I think it’s because of this constant tug of war that money has on our hearts.

 

Berni: So why should we, as people who believe in Jesus, aim to be great stewards?

 

Alex: Well I think it comes down to our purpose here. You know, we are here … once you become a Christian your role, if you like, is to glorify God with everything that you have, all that you are. And that of course includes your money. Now I also believe very strongly that every person on the planet has a calling, you have an assignment. God has something for you to do.

 

Berni: It’s interesting. I mean you’ve figured out your calling: ‘Wealth with Purpose’.

 

Alex: That’s right.

 

Berni: Right. Helping Christians to manage their money in a godly way, putting God first. I have my calling which is doing what I’m doing now. Normally I don’t have someone like you in the studio with me but … that’s my calling and I can’t image not doing that. Some people don’t know what their calling is.

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: Right …

 

Alex: That’s right.

 

Berni: And they strongly … they hear of God and … you know where God’s putting you, right?

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: What do you say to someone who doesn’t know what their calling is?

 

Alex: Well, I think you actually have to actively find it. And I think … what I mean by actively, I mean you have to become radically intimate with God. You know one of the things that God wants from us is just a relationship with us. He created us for relationship. And so the way you find out your purpose is just spending time with God. And I don’t mean in any sort of … it’s not just some sort of legalistic thing and you just tick another box.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: It’s actually genuinely knowing God and what His purposes for you are. Because when you’re filled with the Spirit, God is going to guide you and you know, kind of gently push you along in the direction that He wants you to go. But that’s only going to happen if you’re asking for His help, His guidance and His direction.

 

Berni: And being willing to lay it all down including …

 

Alex: Surrender.

 

Berni: Yeah. Including, as we’re talking about right now, our finances.

 

Alex: Absolutely, and look, the thing about stewardship is ultimately we’re going to have to give an account of everything that God’s given us: our time, our talent, our treasure. But we’re going to be giving an account.

 

Berni: So what’s a good steward look like? What should I be aspiring to, to be a good steward of the resources God’s given me?

 

Alex: Well it starts first with the mindset. And the mindset firstly I think is twofold. One is that you acknowledge everything you have is God’s. And that you’re going to put God first. And once again we’ve talked about this – that’s easy to say, it’s another thing to actually do it. But it does start with that mindset. If you don’t have that mindset, then it’s very hard to become an actual steward. Because the thing about money, and this is a very important point, is how you think about money shapes your behaviour with money. So you’ve got to have the thinking part right first.

Then we can look at some of the more practical things. People often say live within their means, I actually say you need to live beneath your means.

 

Berni: Yeah, amen.

 

Alex: And so when we look at the simple things like budgeting. I say the first 10% should be given to God, as a recommended minimum if you like.

Because you mentioned before how at church the plate goes round and people put in their spare change. It’s because they haven’t done a budget, they have no idea how much they’ve got, and so they just give what’s quickly available.

But your giving should actually be quite planned, quite well thought out and you should have sought God about how much you should give. Because a person who’s a good steward is sacrificially generous.

 

Berni: Let’s talk about that. That’s really important. Luke chapter 21, verses 1 to 4. Jesus is standing outside the temple with his disciples, the widow comes and she puts her few copper coins in. All the other wealth guys, they’ve been putting out theirs … and Jesus gets really excited and says, ‘I truly tell you she’s given more that all the rest.’ Because they’ve given out of their abundance, she’s given all she had to live on.

 

Alex: It’s an amazing passage. And what particularly I find fascinating about that is she knew who her provider was.

 

Berni: Yes, yes.

 

Alex: She knew that, even though she was giving away the last amount of money she had, despite that – God was going to take care of her.

 

Berni: Yes.

 

Alex: And I think a lot of people, they don’t give generously because they’re fearful that once it’s gone it’s gone. And it’s because they don’t understand that God loves them, He’s a generous father who wants to provide and look after us. And when you live like that, you are really allowing the supernatural to occur. You’re allowing God to provide.

 

Berni: I remember when I made the decision to finally begin with tithing. I’ve never had wants since then. I’ve never been without since then. Because at that point I’d been through some tragedy in my life and I was really financially badly off. Despite my income. And God just led me out of that. The supernatural dynamic …

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: Took over.

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: I’m not saying we give in order to be blessed.

 

Alex: Yeah.

 

Berni: But God is a god who blesses obedience.

 

Alex: Absolutely, exactly. In fact, that was the word that came to my mind as you were speaking. Obedience is critical. And I think it’s a word we don’t probably use enough these days in Christian circles.

 

Berni: It’s not very popular. It’s not … that’s not trendy these days.

 

Alex: No and some people I think associate it with legalism. But it’s not legalism at all; it’s actually about honouring God by living by His principles and His way. And it also works.

 

Berni: Odd huh?

 

Alex: I mean that’s the funny thing. I mean … thing about stewardship. One of the reasons I say to people why you should become a good steward, OK, yes glorifying God is first and foremost, but it works.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: It works.

 

Berni: It does. Good place to finish mate. Thanks for that. We’re going to do this one more time tomorrow, huh?

 

Alex: Fantastic.

 

Berni: Powerful stuff, thanks for that Alex.

 

So, when Jesus was choosing his disciples, he called them out of their businesses. Fisherman, tax collectors, and the like. He called them away from business into ministry. But could it be that these days Jesus actually calls people into business as well?

 

Berni:  I had an interesting guy on the program quite a few years ago now who ran a big coffee franchise business and it was fascinating that neither he nor his business partner needed the money. They didn’t need the hassle; they didn’t need to be in business. They were doing it with one purpose and one purpose alone and that was to fund Christian ministry around the world.

 

Alex: Fantastic. And that’s one of the defining features I think of a kingdom business. Is that it has a purpose beyond profit. Profit is essential by a long way. Absolutely.

 

Alex: You need to make a profit or you won’t have a business for very long.

 

Berni: Profit’s not a dirty word.

 

Alex: No, it’s a good thing.

 

Berni: It’s a good thing. What’s a kingdom business look like? Someone’s sitting there thinking I’d love to run my own web design business or my own digital marketing business. And when it … I want to be a builder or a plumber. What does a kingdom business look like?

 

Alex: Yeah, well let’s think about the word kingdom for a moment. So a kingdom implies that there’s a king. And for Christians the king is Jesus. So when it comes to your business the king of your business and the CEO of your business is in fact Jesus. And we are his servants of that kingdom. So it’s having a very different way of looking at that business. Because the thing about business I think in the church in the past is we’ve seen business as a secular activity.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: You go along to work. OK if you’re a Christian you should be a person that operates according to integrity but you use the money to fund ministry. But the reality is that a kingdom business is a ministry.

And so the perspective that Christians who have their own business or who are in business in general, they need to come to realisation that they in fact are in ministry. That is what a kingdom business is about; it’s an actual ministry.

Because if you’re a Christian you are in ministry, it just depends on where you’re at. We all may have different jobs but the clergy’s not the only ministry. A kingdom business is in fact a ministry.

 

Berni: We have this sort of dualistic view of the world that over here we do prayer and church and singing and Bible reading and stuff, that’s all the holy stuff. And over here we do work and taking the kids to soccer, and that’s all the profane stuff. And we separate those two, particularly in Western culture but you don’t find that in the Bible, do you?

 

Alex: No, exactly right. I mean, everything is spiritual.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: I think we’ve somehow compartmentalised our life and we need to change that. You know, God should be through every aspect of your life …

 

Berni: So …

 

Alex: Business included.

 

Berni: Everyone who’s listening today who has a business, a Christian business, you’re actually in ministry. That’s a pretty exciting perspective. So if they‘re in ministry, does God move supernaturally in business? I mean can you do business supernaturally?

 

Alex: Absolutely, and look the thing about the word supernatural. Break it into two. We have a responsibility to do the things in the natural, we actually have to do something, actually have to turn up to things in order for your business to actually function and to perform.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: God does the super. OK, now the way I like to tell people is through an example in my own life. I was in the United States back in February this year and I was attending a conference called the National Religious Broadcasters Conference. Our intention was to try and work out how we could get on US radio.

A funny thing happened. I was standing in the men’s toilet. There washing my hands and standing beside me is a well-known talk show host in the United States. And … who I really admire because he deals with a lot of the controversial issues going on in the US. So I got chatting to him and, you know, he started asking questions about what I did. And I told him that I was there to try and work out how I could get on US radio. And he goes to me, ‘Well do you want to go on in 30 minutes?’

So here I was thinking that I would be on US radio maybe in three or four months’ time after I’d met a few contacts, started to build relationships and so forth. And God got me on radio half an hour later. And …

 

Berni: God can do some amazing stuff, hey?

 

Alex: Yeah and I think it came from two things. One was me turning up and actually being there.

 

Berni: Yeah.

 

Alex: And the second thing though was that every day my wife and I, because my wife was with me, we prayed that God would open the right doors and close the wrong ones. And that’s one thing I do and that’s … that can apply to your business in many ways. Ask God, ‘God can you open the right doors to the right customers, to the right people? And close the wrong ones.’

 

Berni: Now can I ask you, what’s been your greatest challenge being a Christian businessperson?

 

Alex: I think the greatest challenge for me would be relying on my own strength. I’m by nature a hardworking person. I’ve always loved work and loved most of the jobs that I’ve had. I find that my natural tendency is to do things by my own strength and work hard. And when there’s a problem just push harder.

 

Berni: I’m nodding here, by the way, I’m relating a lot to this.

 

Alex: For me the biggest challenge has been to get myself back to depending on God.

 

Berni: How do you do that? What does that mean actually?

 

Alex: For me it’s been about focussing on my relationship with God. So probably when I first went in to the business world what I would do is I would read the Bible on the way to work in the morning. I’d read it on the bus and maybe …

 

Berni: I’m happy you weren’t driving here, right?

 

Alex: No. And so you know I’d pray for a few minutes and I’d read the Bible on the bus. But what I’ve done now is I now get up much earlier. I get up at five. I probably spend … and this is not about time and it’s not about bragging either by the way. But I get up, I spend ideally between half an hour to an hour in prayer, in worship, just worshipping God with Christian songs. And just praying and seeking God.

So I do that each day but then the other thing I do is half a day a week I actually go to a … I live in Buenos Aires in Argentina so I go to a lovely coffee shop that …

 

Berni: I thought you had a bit of an accent, there. I thought that. It’s Argentinian, right? OK, go on.

 

Alex: So I go to a place where there’s a golf course on one side, a beautiful path on river on the other.

 

Berni: It’s tough on the mission field isn’t it?

 

Alex: It’s rough, you know, I’m suffering for Christ. And I spend an hour just walking around this lake, just in prayer. And just asking God for help. And then I spend a couple of hours just reading through His word. Taking notes, jotting things down, writing things – Oh I want to know more about this and so forth. And just building that relationship with God. And asking questions and asking for His help.

Thing is, God actually care about all your affairs. And He wants to be involved in your business. He wants you to do well, He wants you to … to guide you. So that you can use all these things He’s given you to honour Him and glorify Him. And so that radical intimacy is how you build dependency on God.

 

Berni: I love that term radical … radical intimacy. So many people know about God but don’t know God.

 

Alex: It’s a big, big problem.

 

Berni: It’s a big, big issue. In fact, what we’re going to do in a moment is we’re going to pray for you. One piece of advice for the aspiring Christian business person: what is it?

 

Alex: Well, I think it sort of comes back to what we were just saying there – If you’re going into business you need God on your side. You need Him as your CEO and, if you like, your business partner. And so the only way that’s going to happen is if you spend time with Him. A lot of people think that … that by spending that time they’re actually losing that time. It’s time they could be doing business.

 

Berni: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Alex: But it’s the exact opposite. That’s when the supernatural can occur. Because if you don’t spend the time with God the supernatural won’t occur. By having that radical intimacy and complete dependency you’ll have an amazing kingdom business.

 

Berni: Father God, I pray for anybody who’s listening today who wants that radical intimacy with you. Lord, I just pray that you would take what Alex has spoken to us and by your Spirit you would write it on our hearts. Lord, you would fill us with a hunger, with a desire, with a thirst, to have that relationship so that we wouldn’t be put off with religious rituals.

But Lord, you would build something in us by your Spirit that desires you above all other things. Lord, your people … your people hunger for you, your people desire you. Would you bless us with your presence? In Jesus’ mighty name.

Now Alex before I let you go. wealthwithpurpose.com?

 

Alex: Yes, that’s right.

 

Berni: wealthwithpurpose.com. You want to find out some more of the great teaching that Alex has got, it’s all on that website. I’d really encourage you to go and check it out. Because God wants to do some amazing things with you and with your finances and with the call that he’s placed on your life. Amen.

 

Alex: Amen.

 

Berni: Alex it’s been great to have you on the program the last couple of weeks. God bless you, mate.

 

Alex: My pleasure, Berni. Thanks for having me.

 

Berni: Yeah that’s great stuff. Thanks mate, it’s been a real pleasure to have you on the program these last couple of weeks, really.